Category: Let's talk
well today London has resumed normal life after yesterday's terrorist attacks. The underground is back up and running, apart from those lines affected by the explosions, the stock market, having lost 200 points yesterday, has recovered almost fully, people are going to work as normal. London is truely the greatest city in the world. I don't live in london, but I am proud to say that I am brittish. We will not be beaten by the people who seek to destroy us.
I am not from England but I really like this country. I was really shocked when I heard it yesterday as I know so many people in England. I guess for people who are affected, such as relatives from people who died or who are hurt, it won't be easy to start normal life again.
The psycho-emotional trauma from July the 7th will last for years...if the survivors for instance heard a car backfire, it might be enough to send them straight back to the explosion ..and this could happen 6 months to a year later...its vital that they recieve counselling and adequate follow up, which I'm sure they will, as we know how to handle these situations...
Ya know, anyone with half a brain will know that the victims will need to receive councelling. We all feel for the victims of these attacks, peple lost loved ones out there, earlier today they had the colleagues of a man who they believe was on the buss that exploded and who hasn’t been seen or heard from since. But we can’t dwell on the negatives. If we do that, we’ve let the terrorists win. We have to pick up and get on with things, we can’t live in fear because if we do, then they don’t have to do anything else, they can just sit there and bask in the glory of their success. I feel for those who will need councelling, and they will come through it. But let’s be positive! Just for once!
The whole thing in all is this: As a United Nation, we need to seriously sit down with all leaders present and we need to sift through things that need to be done, and things that need to be done immediately! It's essential and very crucial that something needs to be done. Our country, the U.S., doesn't need to be fighting in some other place, Iraq, it needs to be helping Grat Britain and other countries fight Terrorism at home and where it originates.
And what needs to be done. pull troops out of iraq? do we really think that if we do that then terrorism will stop? because the reality is that it won't. this morning on the radio they had an expert talking about terrorism and he said that the difference between terrorism now and in the past is that, in the past, terrorists were trying to negotiate, that they wanted an outcome, but now terrorists just terrorise, pretty much because they can. if we pull troops out of iraq those same people will find a different reason to do what they do. And we can search every house in this country, we can blow up every shopping bag, every suitcase, every parcel that accidentally gets left on a railway station, or in a litter bin, or in a shop doorway, but there is no way to defend against people who are prepared to die in the name of their cause, the suecide bombers.
Hmm, not necessarily true though, not entirely. There must be fundamental reasons that young men and supposedly young women too can be persuaded to give up their lives killing others. I think our approach so far has been misguided, invading a muslim country baed on alligtions that since have turned out to be lies, killing thousands of innocent civilians whose family members may have become so angry and out of their minds as to join in the terrorist camp. What the U.S. and their allies has been doing in the last year or two has only served to give the master minds behind the terrorist activities the opportunity to dmonstrate the evil purpose of the west and really fueled their propaganda fires. The Isrrael situation further serves to enhance the terrorist message, we essentially condone targetted killings of Arabs by Israelis and we support them living in rich isolated settlements ignoring the millions of people starving outside their walls and believing guns and rockets are the answer and serve to suppress them. I'm not saying who is right or wrong there but we clearly support one side and we basically give them free hands to use whatever violent means they see fit. This is perceived very badly in the Arab world and the extremists can use this to their advantage. So whilst we certainly should not stand down and "give in" to the terrorists war is not the answer, needless killing of Arabs is not going to deter the terrorists, the opposite, the solution is better understanding, more communicatio and that combined with firmness but considerate and understanding attitude might start changing the general perception of the Arab world and taking the suicide bomber volunteers away from those who want to use them. The Iraq invasion only served to create the best training ground terrorists have had in ages and possibly enabled them to access chemical weapons (if Iraq had any weapons I'm sure Hussein, when faced with a definite defeat had absolutely nothing to lose politically and ould have handed some over to the terrorist organizations to, well, revenge on the evil Statesonce he was captured). No terorist activity should benefit those who organized it and they should be brougt to justice but in order to prevent those attacks in the long run we can't resort to mere slogans and provokations, we've triedit and we see how well it as worked, I think dialog, understanding and change of attitude is what we need to aim for first and foremost so that people can let us lead our lives without living in fear.
I think that lundoners are very strong people, and I commend them! I know that it would be very difficult for me as a person to go about my life as business as usual, and lundon has set an awesome example. I agree with others that posted here in saying that we all need to get together to find a better way of dealing with the extremists. I know that tarorism's wrong, but we're distroying an other country, and not all of those people are like the extremists. Not to mention, bush lied to get us in to this entire mess...
Aragorn its a great idea however Britain is withholding information from the US, on the war crimes of Saddam Hussein, so how can we expect several countries to exchange information honestly...when they are constantly paranoid and distrustful...the sad thing is that as long as Britian ect supports America, due to 9/11, the longer we will suffer at the hands of Al Qaeda.....Japan I agree but idealisim isn't going to work or change the minds of Al Qaeda because they are the most extreme terrorist force ever created by 1 man...and as you said Iraq is a colossal mess and by invading another Muslim Arab country..America has excaerbated an already dreadful situation, and taught the Iraqi's to hate they have in a sense created a whole new generation of Osama Bin Ladens...
I think goblin puts things pretty well here. See, there are parts you need to create attacks such as this one. It's not enough tohave a few unfortuante people who are somehow so brain washed or drive to such desperation or madness they are willing to blow themselves up in the name of some cause or other. You need people who have money and skills and organization to use those unfortunate souls to do damage. I'm not sure how expensive explosives are but I know personally I'd have a more difficult time finding and controlling explosives than, say, drugs, I know some can be made from fairly siple chemicals but you need to have money to buy checmicals and expertees to make the bombs, talent to figure out successful/bloody targets etc. So the cause tha peopple are fighting for must be well organized and get a lot of financial support and sympathy for them to be able to carry out such attacks, unfortunately the Iraq invasion has created a very sympathetic atmosphere in the Arab world, it seems, for such extremists and they are using that to its fullest. It's quite scary but my point is, we must change that genearal atmosphere and the opinions of the Arab people to cut off the financial source and expertees behined those projects and it can't be done overnight and what we've done since 9/11 has, in fact, amounted to the opposite, more or less.
cheers
-B
Wildebrew, in general, I agree with you. However, I believe you are giving the terrorists too much credit. It is true that the measures you propose, i.e. changing the general atmosphere, will achieve the desired effect with the majority of the Arab population. The problem is that terrorists are not the general Arab population. They hate us simply because they have very strong religious and value-related convictions, and as infidels, we directly fly in the fact of Allah. Our mere existence is an insult to them. you can change any climate you want, but I don't think that will impress the terrorists much. Neither will the specific means you propose to achieve this: first of all, how are you going to practically sit down with terrorists and have a discussion? It's not like they are a localized group such as a government that you can invite to the table with you, and even if you could, they are very much driven by fear that we will overtake their lifestyle (which we eventually will, the truth is that this is an unequal war, and even if they manage to kill a few hundred of us, which they will, ultimately there is no contest in which value system will assert itself) and hatred because you are doing exactly that, and are thus not likely to be open to rational debate. My main point is that yes, dialogue would improve general Arab-Western relations, but I think it will largely leave terrorism unaffected.
I agree we could sever all contact with America, and pull out of Iraq tommorrow, but we cannot change our most grevious mistake...that of supporting the most detested nation in the eyes of Al Qaida..
I have to agree, Goblin.
Susanne, no, I have to disagree with you there or at least I'd want you to bring further support for4 your argument. See, the Americans at least let us to believe these are few very sick individuals who orchestrate those attacks and those groups are unaffected by any actions that we take. The fact of the matter is that it takes millions of dollars and hours of very painstaking work, months more likely to orchestrate those attacks, get the explosives etc. This is something that cannnot be done by very few isolated poor individuals, it takes money and time and it really takes quite a few people to stage. Not that I am the expert but 911 reports e.g. said it took up to 3 to 4 years to plan those attacks and millions of dollars were involved. Obviously in order to come by such large amounts of money you need either one very rich person or a lot of people who are sympathetic to your course and are willing to donate money even if they do so to the front of a charity organization or something similar perhaps but I think generally people know what they are donating money to. And instead of even trying to turn the general Arab opinion we add fuel to that fire by invading an Arab country based on false alligations, alligations we even admit are false and then the Americans hold hundreds of their people in detension without any legal grounds in breach of international contracts and declare openly that they are going to restore democracy (western way of life) in the middle east pretty much regardless of the general public opinion in the middle east. I am not by any means justifying what has taken place in the U.S., Spain or the UK but I am just saying we should have expected as much because I think similar reactions on Arabs behalf might have triggered similar responsess from the U.S. e.g. if the tables were turned. In their eyes they are fighting for their freedom and their way of life against the western oppressors and we have very few substential facts to dispute those who claim so and turn public opinion in those countries. Are those attacks inevitable then, should we bow to the fear and not spread the democracy we believe in. Those are hard questions really and I can't answer them. I think what the UK and the US have been doing in Iraq is shameful and if they had, for instance, killed my parents or siblings I know I would be extremely angry. I would h hope to be a strong and just enough person to not be bowed by offers of revenge and I would certainly not bwow myself up but I know I would be angry and wouldn't cry much over whom I considered the enemy sufferig some losses. It's war, people get killed, people are, by nature, mean and vengeful creatures, we all kow this and we can claim otherwise but ultimately this is the fact. So I guess I'm really saying given what has been going on those attacks are almost inevitable and at least they only manage to kill a few tens or hundreds of people rather than wipe out entire cities, our priorities must therefore be to prevent them from getting their hands on any means that would enable them to do so because I am afraid they wouldn't hesitate to use such opportunity, but furthermore I think we need to try and sway the general public opinion at leat by playing by the rules and try to demonstrate our "justice for all" policy and prove that it is more than empty slogans. It's a very delicate situation and it's really very sad for all concerned. My heart is currently with those tho died in London and I can't understand the cruelty but similarly I feel for those who are held without any legal grounds in Cuba or those who died in the bombing of Iraq and keep dying every day. Any loss of life is sad whatever the nationality of the sufferer may be.
cheers
-B
Hi Wildebrew, and the rest of you :-). No doubt these attacks took a lot of money and planning; it's actually not as easy as it has been often insinuated to deceive intelligence agencies enough to mount attacks of this scale, and it requires a huge amount of coordination. And no, it probably cannot be instigated by a few scattered poor individuals, but the terrorist cells who actually carry out the attacks are supported, financially and otherwise, by other individuals or even organizations, who may be scattered but definitely not poor. It's not a strict top-down organization, for sure (or at least not anymore since Bin Laden can't run the show from his cave). It has spread out into a more fractured and level structure, but it is still a closed realm of terrorism that has little to do with the general Arab population. The instigators are fanatical organizers who have the backing of equally fanatical oil barons or, in some isolated cases like Saudi Arabia, entire governments. Still not general populations... This is why I think that we have to basically separate the approaches to stopping terrorism, and to improving general Arab-Western relations. It is, of course, true, however, that "our" behavior in the Middle East makes it much, much easier for terrorist groups to recruit. As you say, if you've watched your family and friends be mistreated, you are much likely to became enraged, as am I. But I don't think that this also applies to the terrorism figureheads in power: As in any war, the troups are the poor suckers who have been affected by the suffering, whereas the ones higher up are fighting a much "cleaner" war on the basis of ideology. In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that by behaving more honorably towards the Middle East, we could make it harder for terrorist groups to recruit, but we would not stop terrorism, as those in power would be unaffected (*they* live quite well), and I'm sure they could still find enough people to carry out their schemes; it does not take that many. Unfortunately I am inclined to agree with what you so studiously avoid saying :-) : I don't really believe there is any way to stop terrorism. We have two value systems in conflict here, and each wants to take over the world. We try to assert our dominance by what many of us (including me, as you know) regard as unjustified large-scale violence and invasion, and they do the only thing they can: fight a guerilla war by means of terrorism. Sad, sad, sad, but the only thing we can do is try to be as vigilant as we can and try to minimize the effects of their attempts. What they are doing is natural in their situation. This, naturally, does not make it any less tragic for those who were directly affected in London, but neither does it make it any more tragic for the Iraqi family members of those who are killed every day. Sorry for the long rant :-).
If this terrorist attack had happened in some Arabic country, let's say Djibuti, would you all be so bothered? I don't think so. Suddenly it matters so much because ... it happened here. I'm not surprised it did, we've had it coming for a long time. It's thanks to the great inteligence services of this country that it didn't happen sooner. Now really, I haven't heard anyone talking about the stupidity of these attacks. The terrorists who bombed the bus put the bomb on the top deck, things would have been worse if the bomb was on the bottom deck. The bomb that targeted three trains would have cost more lives if it was directed at people on the one train. Really London is very looky that the terrorists weren't the brightest people in the world. Stupidest thing of all though is that they attacked London. Surely if they wanted to cause greater problems they would have bombed trains going between big cities during rush hour. I haven't heard anything about security arrangements for that kind of attack. Really the terrorists aren't as clever as people may think, and we in the UK should be thankful of that. Anyone who didn't think there was going to be a threat on the day which marked the start of the g8 meeting is also stupid too. The British people have handled it very well and the attitude of we won't be stopped by the terrorists is the correct one to have. The Spannish and American publics though didn't have it in the aftermath of their terrorist attacks straight away. The British should be proud of their handling of the situation and also realise that their is a potential for attacks elsewhere if the terrorists suddenly discover a brain.
I agree therek, Wayne. NO, I would not be that shocked ... well, I would be, but as London is nearer and a more important city for me, I am more shocked.
Well it’s only natural that an attack such as this one that happened on our doorstep will receive far greater media attention than if it had happened in another country. After all, most people who live here will know someone, or know someone who knows someone who lives, or works in London and who might have been in London on the day of the attacks. Also, while this might seem a little harsh, suicide bombings are quite common place in Iraq now and in Israel/palistine, if someone blew up a buss every week in London the media would soon start reporting less on it. It would just be an every day occurrence, a bit like road accidents for instance. With reference to developing a greater understanding of how these people feel, and why they feel the way they do, I agree to an extent, but I think the reality is that if we take away one cause, they will find another. After all, The attacks on September the 11th happened two years before the war in Iraq, subsequent to that there were attempted attacks, Richard Wright was caught trying to blow up a plane between London and new york just a few months after 9/11 and he was Brittish. So we have never been safe really, We may have given the terrorists a more valid reason to go around killing people in the name of their cause, but if we pulled all the troops out of iraq, they would find something else to name as their cause. After all alkida training camps were established in Afghanistan some time in the 80’s, so this form of terrorism has been being planned for deckades. I don’t think we will ever stop terrorism, after all, terrorism is instilling fear and panic, and you don’t have to blow people up to do that.
Well, I think John Simpson has a great article on the whoel affair at www.bbc.com today in his weekly political overview. I think we pretty much came to an agreement on what he said there, that the only solution really is to ignore the attacks, like an exceptionally rude guest at a dinner party. If security measures were vissibly tightened all across the board and fear and hatred be created towards Arabs amongst the general population this is exactly what the terrorists are hoping for and, thus, exactly what they should not get. WW, no, it's got nothing to do with the terrorists being stupid. The bombings are much more symbolic than anything else. They are saying "look, we can set off 4 bombs in this city and you can't do anything about it, 4 separate places, you never know where the next attack is coming from", they are going for the message, not the number of people killed. After all Al Qaeda initially talked of flying the 911 planes into nuclear power plants instead of the twin towers but decided against it as it would kill too many people and would be less symbolic. Similarly putting all your bombs on one train may have killedmore people but would not have the Al Aqeda signature and it would, I think, in some ways at leat, receive less media attention. They have their own signature now and that signature must be a part of their attacks. I certainly did not suggest we withdraw from Iraq really, after all if terrorist attacks start controlling the way people live their lives certainly they will have achieved their ultimate purpose. I think me and Susanne are in full agreement here really, these attacks are the repercusions of our clashing value systems and people who feel threatened by our way of life, not, like president Bush claims, because it's superior and theirs is inferior, I think more generally because we have thepower and means to spread our ways of life, even if it is not through military ight, their culture and values are threatened and sadly some people are willing to go to great lengths to protect them and take, what appears to me to be very stupid and short sighted measuers in that department.
Cheers
-B
Of course a great advantage of being in Iraq is that most of the terrorism activity is concentrated within that country so strategically it was a great thing because it brought most of them into a concentrated area decreasing the possibility of attacks back home. Of course if they were less stupid they'd realise that while we've got troops in Iraq they should strike here often because we couldn't deal with it but as I've all ready said, most terrorists ar too dm and stupid to cause maximum harm.
Execpt the highly trained well educated young Fakiri's who are now joining Al Qaida from Britian..it is stupid in the extreme to generalise about terrorists in such a flippant and childish way...
for once i have to agree with goblin. what you are saying WW makes little sense. consider this. since the 9 11 attacks on new york they have achieved exactly what they wanted. they have significantly destabilized world peace plus at the same time strengthening there own hand by drawing countries from the west into wars in asia that ultimately, in the eyes of these fanatics, only prove that the west is doing its utmost to undermine eastern cultures! but, not only do the fanatics think this way but previously moderate thinking muslims will now start to side with the fanatics because there homes are being destroyed by allied bombs. there families are being killed by british and american forces and there countries are being reshaped into a western image because we say that that is what's best for them!
in short, who are the stupid people here? the terrorists for rousing us into acts of war that ultimately serve there purpose? or us for following there lead?
Not to mention that, yeah, theymanaged to get holdof explosives and organize a co-ordinated attacks across London but then were stupid enough to go on the wrong floor of the double decker bus. No, I don't think so, I think they want to cause chaos rather than go after the maximum number of lives in the process, their main goal is publicity which is exactly what they are achieving.
cheers
-B
If they’d wanted to kill a lot of people they could have. Today it was announced that the three bombs on the underground went off within 50 seconds of each other. That’s pretty good coordination. If they had wanted to , they could have put a bomb on every train line in London, on every buss in London, with far more dramatic results.